discuss/past

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discuss (archive) exists to collect previous notes and decisions from the main discuss page.

Brainstorming

events meetups channel

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There is a desire for a new channel, for simplicity by default like nearly all other new channels, logged, indexed, with web access, for use by folks before or at events or meetups, in-person or virtual, for potentially real-time and/or rapid chat about an event or related socializing & logistics.

Discussion: this has come up most recently on 2024-03-08 and has come up a few times in chat in the past (citations would help!).

Use-cases:

  • A dedicated place to see event start and end notifications
    • 10 minutes before scheduled zoom meeting
    • a notification when the actual zoom call ends
  • A clear place to chat instead of Zoom during virtual or hybrid events!
    • We turn off Zoom chat in the IndieWeb Zooms, so it would be great if there was a singular clear chat channel to use specifically during such events that we could link to, and direct people to in Zooms.
    • The name of the channel should be easily speakable/hearable, so folks can find/join with minimal effort
  • ... extract more from meta chat logs 2024-03-08

Pros:

  • separate out the discussion that happens during a zoom or in-person event
    • online discussions can continue without worrying about stepping on the toes of in-person/zoom discussions
    • a place to share links during a zoom meeting where it's ok that there's no context in chat (e.g. multiple instances of a link being dropped in the chat that appears as a sequitur because there was no prior discussion in chat because the discussion was on zoom)
  • when you're in person, you often want a high signal channel to get updates on scheduling or where the group is heading after the main event, etc


Cons:

  • one more place to catch up on scrollback. (which is also a pro: easy to skim and ignore all scrollback if you aren't interested)

Prior art (other communities' channel names/purposes for events and meetups)

  • #meetup in Discord in the Escape Hatch (EH) community for planning IRL meetups and coordinating when in the same town - Tantek Çelik
  • #live-stream-chat in Discord in the EH community for backchannel chat during a shared live video stream. - Tantek Çelik (more)
  • #voice-text-chat — gRegor Morrill: "A Discord I'm in has a channel #voice-text-chat for when people are hanging out in the voice channel for an event. It works pretty well for dropping links, gif reactions, side-chat, and allows non-verbal people to participate." [1]
  • ...

events meetups naming

Proposed names: (all names would have the "indieweb-" prefix in IRC and Discord, and no prefix in Slack,

  • #events
    • +1 Tantek Çelik — have changed my mind on this. clear, and also will provide a nicer/friendlier home for chat about, before, during, and after events instead of the #meta channel. This is my preferred option.
    • +1 Aaron Parecki - clear and straightforward
    • +1 Murray - agreed, feels the most simplistic/expected
    • +1 João Pesce - generic so it can be used for any event
    • 0 David Shanske - I like the idea, but I'm worried the name may be seen as being about events, which we usually talk about in meta over it is active during events. But I think it could work.
    • +1 Anthony Ciccarello - Seems clearest to me. Might need some education that event planning should be in #meta as David Shanske mentioned.
    • +1 Dr. Matt Lee
    • +1/0/-1 Add yourself here… (see this for more details)
  • #live
    • +0 Aaron Parecki - adding this because we did use indieweb.live to livestream one or two indiewebcamp events in the past
    • +1 David Shanske - I think this may be better than the other choices because it expressly says this is onyl used during a live event.
    • +1 Tantek Çelik - this one clearly indicates connection to a currently live event, however might be too specific. maybe we can start with #events and see if we still need a channel for "live" in particular?
    • +0 Anthony Ciccarello - I'd prefer #events but this makes sense too
    • +1 Dr. Matt Lee
    • +1 Jim Winstead - clear that is for live events, not discussion about events
    • +1/0/-1 Add yourself here… (see this for more details)

off the record channel

The problems with the "chat" channel were documented in the proposal for the "random" channel.

While the new "random" channel isn't logged to the web archives, it is still persistent in Discord and Slack.

Having a channel with even less persistent history is still quite useful for many use-cases where something may have some realtime relevance but not within days.

This was previously discussed in 2016, but did not reach a conclusion. https://indieweb.org/rename_to_IndieWeb#non-log_based_IRC_chat_stuff

This proposal is to rename the #indieweb-chat channel (#chat on Slack), or preferably start fresh with a new off the record channel and close #indieweb-chat, since #indieweb-chat has been going for a long time and likely has a number of abandoned accounts, bouncers, and bots in it (which may be defeating the off the record purpose).

This (new) channel would:

  • still be bridged between Slack/Discord/IRC
  • not available to join from the web client at chat.indieweb.org
  • not logged to the chat archives
  • Slack automatically will delete messages after 90 days (we do not get control over this)
  • a Discord bot will delete messages after X days (should this match the 90 days of slack? not sure if there are any limitations on how long bots can delete messages for)
    • 1 day — Tantek Çelik, that should be sufficient for the intent of this channel. Could live with up to 4 days for folks that want to ignore chat for a (long) weekend for example but still see @-mentions (though maybe we set a culture of using !tell here instead of @-mentions for folks that haven't spoken recently).
  • Note that IRC itself is not logged centrally, but an individual's IRC client may log messages indefinitely and we have no control over that.
    • Tantek Çelik: we could have a bot that kicks IRC nicks that have been quiet/inactive for say a month
    • Aaron Parecki: +1 to that idea!

off the record naming

  • #indieweb-cafe
    • +1 Tantek Çelik — broader than *-espresso. conversations in a cafe have very little (expected) history, you may overhear things while you're in line to order, before you join a table to talk with folks, and you don't expect to see/hear any chat in the cafe once you have left the cafe.
    • +1 gRegor Morrill proposed this half-jokingly in response to -espresso, but I like the analogy of chill vibes, socializing, and usually lots of people on laptops.
    • +1 Anthony Ciccarello I'm down for communicating a good vibes space as long as it's clear to others
    • 0 Aaron Parecki it's cute, my worry is that it's not explicitly clear the difference from "random".
    • +1 JL Gatewood I like cafes. When I lived in a smaller apartment, I would treat the local indie cafes like my living room. A real third place. Encourages a space to discuss and relax.
    • +1 Marty McGuire cafes have historically been incubators of social revolution. 😏
    • +1 to2ds okay, this one is starting to grow on me, though it doesn't seem to imply "not logged."
    • +1 Mark Sutherland this reflects the casual group conversation style we have in HWC, and I like cafes.
    • +0 capjamesg
    • +1 Dr. Matt Lee
    • +0 Jim Winstead
    • +1 Rosalina Saige sounds cute :3
    • +1/0/-1 Add yourself here… (see this for more details)
  • #indieweb-chill
    • +1 Tantek Çelik — along the lines of *-cafe and *-vibes, a place to chill, not be beholden to rules of what belongs here and what doesn't. encourages calm conversations to escape anything formal. you can relax more because it's considered off the record and nothing you say is expected to be cited or quoted. Encourages chill vibes.
    • +0 Anthony Ciccarello
    • -1 Marty McGuire this channel is where folks in heated discussions are sent to cool off
    • +1 Dr. Matt Lee
    • -1 Aaron Parecki agreed with schmarty
    • +1/0/-1 Add yourself here… (see this for more details)
  • #indieweb-ephemera
  • #indieweb-espresso
  • #indieweb-hangout
    • +1 JL Gatewood I'm a sucker for the "does what it says on the tin" kind of labels. A "hangout" is a place where you can hang out and chat, just lurk and listen, vibe, nap, play games, do random whatever.
    • +0 Marty McGuire i like a good hangout (event) but a hangout (place) gets dingy.
    • -1 Aaron Parecki almost makes it sound like the default place to be
    • +1/0/-1 Add yourself here… (see this for more details)
  • #indieweb-offtherecord
    • +1 Aaron Parecki makes it clear this is not logged, possibly a bit long of a name tho
    • +0 Marty McGuire this is fine
    • -1 Tantek Çelik It's not totally horrible, but it's not good either. It sounds legalistic / formal. It violates the fun principle. It's also direct enough of a name to attract trolls with an intent to grief and defeat the purpose of the channel.
    • +0 Anthony Ciccarello descriptive but also a mouthful...
    • +1 Al Abut This is the only name that says what it does in such an obvious way that you understand it without having to look it up in the wiki. Introducing extra steps is a UX obstacle, plus a good rule of thumb for naming (or features in general) is to not need a manual to understand it.
    • +1 0x3b0b I echo essentially all of what Al Abut said. Unfortunately I also agree with Tantek Çelik about the potential for trolls to be drawn to it like a bridge.
    • +1 Dr. Matt Lee -- would be fine with #indieweb-otr too
    • +1 Jim Winstead seems most clear about the intention
    • +1/0/-1 Add yourself here… (see this for more details)
  • #indieweb-offtopic
    • +1 Aaron Parecki I've seen "offtopic" channels in other communities. Not explicitly unlogged, but at least is implied since it's for offtopic topics
    • +1 Marty McGuire I like the encouragement in the name to move "on topic" conversations out of here.
    • -1 Tantek Çelik is not named for the purpose of the channel. Worse, adds confusion with random as Aaron Parecki said above for indieweb-cafe:

      my worry is that it's not explicitly clear the difference from "random"

      and as noted previously, "offtopic" feels corporate-jargon or tech-communication-centric jargon to me. It's not horrible, but it's not good either. It violates the fun principle.
    • +1 Anthony Ciccarello probably my top pick. Seems clear to me (not jargony).
    • +1/0/-1 Add yourself here… (see this for more details)
  • #indieweb-raindrops
    • +0 Tantek Çelik because you only see and feel raindrops for moments, you have can't see past raindrops
    • -1 Marty McGuire it's damp in here.
    • +0 0x3b0b I wouldn't have inferred the intent from the name, but unlike some of the other proposals for which that is also true, I wouldn't be likely to forget it and I find the idea actively pleasant.
    • -1 Aaron Parecki
    • +1/0/-1 Add yourself here… (see this for more details)
  • #indieweb-tmp
  • #indieweb-vanishing


random channel for informal

The naming of #indieweb-chat was largely an accident/convenience (not an agreed decision, majority was actually against!) back from the days of when we had #indiewebcamp and #indiechat, and switched everything to be #indieweb-* prefixed.

It was important for the context/culture of the time for indiechat to not be logged or provide any lengthy history.

Informal (sometimes offtopic) chatter is helpful for friendlier community building.

When we connected up Discord, the only option was to disable all history in the channel, which is unfriendly to newcomers, and a papercut (at best) inconvenience even to existing community members using Discord.

Use-case for "random":

We need a channel that:

  • allows people to have an environment where they can chat (important for community building),
  • has at least some history so the context of discussions are preserved, and;
  • is not confusing to newcomers.

#indieweb-random is proposed for this, as a new channel, without having to figure out "what to do with #indieweb-chat" since many folks are already familiar with the Slack default #random channel.

This solves the declared problem sooner without having to figure out what to do with legacy usage.

Additional details:

  • indieweb-random is NOT available via the chat.indieweb.org web UI
  • indieweb-random is NOT logged in our web-based chat archives
  • indieweb-random is bridged to Slack and Discord, so history will be visible in both
  • it is ok to quote from random even though it is not publicly archived (different from existing "-chat", and any offtopic/OTR proposal)

Opinions?

  • +1 Tantek Çelik: (proposer)
  • +1 capjamesg
  • +1 Aaron Parecki
  • +1 pcarrier.com
  • +0 gRegor Morrill not opposed, but I do think this effectively means we would need to close indieweb-chat in the near future (which could also be ok!), because if we want to have unified discussions anyone across Slack, Discord, and IRC can access, only this new channel (with its history preserved in Discord/Slack), allows that.
  • +1/0/-1 Add yourself here… (see this for more details) and optionally a comment if you wish
Resolution

The #indieweb-random channel was added on 2024-05-24.

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